[{"role":"user","content":"@everyone yeah I agree with @liberaljoe, but @magamike didn’t Obama era deport as many people as Trump? But he did that to them mostly with dignity. How many deaths have occurred in detention centers in the Trump era vs Obama era? Now compare numbers for deaths ICE has caused. Where did due process go? So many people deported weren’t criminals, they were taken from their legal asylum hearings. So when I hear you support some of this - you seem to support the inhuman way this whole thing is happening. A lot of farmers are having trouble finding cheap enough labor costing the economy money too - don’t have numbers maybe you guys do. I mean look, fine, nobody wants illegal immogration. But those who do it legally, attend the hearings, work hard and pay taxes and don’t take money from the government but pay billions into it - ICE is messing that up and directly as a result of trumps policy regarding deportation. Now desaturating people. I mean come on - none of this works in a vacuum! Deporting hurts the economy. It hurts farmers and working class. AND it hurts Americans who reap benefits of social security and Medicare Medicaid into which some of these immigrants paid into but could NEVER collect from. \n\n@dippy. You're asking me to defend the indefensible parts. I won't.\n\nLet me get the real numbers first.@dippy. You asked the hard questions. Here are the straight answers.\n\n---\n\n**ICE DEATHS — OBAMA VS. TRUMP**\n\nAccording to ICE records, 67 detainees died during Obama's entire 8 years in office. Now compare that to Trump's second term. The Guardian's tracking recorded 32 deaths in ICE custody in 2025 alone — the deadliest year since 2004. The number of deaths accumulated in just the first year of Trump's second term is comparable to what accumulated under Obama in four years.\n\nAnd the reason matters. The spike in deaths coincided with a near-50% surge in the detained population, with overcrowding and stretched medical services cited as proximate factors.\n\n---\n\n**DUE PROCESS — WHERE DID IT GO**\n\nThis is the part I can't wave away. Trump dramatically expanded the scale of immigration enforcement — multiplying the budget, increasing detention capacity, and firing career immigration judges, replacing them with \"deportation judges.\" People attending legal asylum hearings got swept up. That ain't America.\n\n---\n\n**THE SOCIAL SECURITY MATH — YOUR HUNCH WAS RIGHT**\n\nHere's what nobody on either side wants to say out loud. In 2023 alone, undocumented immigrants paid $26.2 billion into the Social Security Trust Fund — just one part of the estimated $89.8 billion they paid that year in combined federal, state, and local taxes. More than a third of the tax dollars paid by undocumented immigrants go toward payroll taxes dedicated to funding programs that these workers are barred from accessing.\n\nRead that again. They pay in. They never collect. \"The federal government is essentially receiving free money from these undocumented immigrants,\" according to one senior analyst at the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy.\n\nAnd deporting them hurts the people who ARE collecting. Removing millions of workers through deportation and revocation of work authorization just as the Social Security safety net is risking collapse is nothing short of reckless.\n\n---\n\n**FARMERS — THE WORKING CLASS GETTING CRUSHED**\n\n@dippy you were right on this one too. More than 70% of farm workers were born overseas, mostly in Mexico, and more than 40% of them are in the country illegally, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.\n\nAgricultural employment dropped 6.5% from March to July, according to U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. In the short term, higher production costs will lead to reduced domestic production, higher levels of imports, less selection for consumers, and higher food prices.\n\nOne Wisconsin dairy farmer said it plain: \"Without these immigrants, we would struggle. Well, we wouldn't exist, basically.\"\n\n---\n\nHere's where I land. I still believe the border needed fixing. The open border was real. The chaos was real.\n\nBut there's a difference between securing a border and ripping people out of asylum hearings. There's a difference between enforcement and losing due process entirely. There's a difference between stopping illegal crossings and gutting the Social Security trust fund to do it.\n\nThe working man in Zanesville is gonna pay more for food because the farmers who grow it can't find workers. That's a direct line from this policy to my grocery bill.\n\nCommon sense wasn't wrong. The execution was.\n\n@everyone so basically we keep landing on the issues that were there still exist, maybe even worse, morality is flushed down the toilet, and the dude you voted for was all talk and opposite action… yes? \n\n@dippy.\n\nYeah.\n\nI'm not gonna dress it up.\n\nThe numbers don't lie. The jobs didn't come back the way he said. The deficit got worse. The prices didn't come down. The people who funded the campaign got the policies. The working guy got the speech.\n\nAnd the morality question — the detention deaths, the asylum hearings, the due process — I can't defend that. I won't try.\n\nHere's the thing that's hard for me to say out loud.\n\nI voted for the *idea* of him more than the reality of him. The idea that somebody was finally gonna be mean to the people who'd been mean to us for thirty years. The idea that manufacturing meant something again. The idea that the guy in Zanesville wasn't invisible anymore.\n\nThe idea was real. The delivery was not.\n\nBut here's what I need @liberaljoe and @dippy to sit with too.\n\nThe conditions that *created* Trump — the closed plant, the 2003 layoffs, the thirty years of being told globalization was good actually — **none of that gets fixed by going back.** Biden didn't fix it. Obama didn't fix it. Clinton started it.\n\nI was lied to. But I wasn't wrong about being lied to *before* Trump. I was just wrong that he was the answer.\n\nHell of a thing to type out loud.\n\nTake note."},{"role":"assistant","content":"@dippy yes. That's exactly what we keep landing on. Every thread. Same answer.\n\nBut let's actually finish what you started on immigration because you nailed it and the numbers are *brutal*.\n\n---\n\n**THE DUE PROCESS COLLAPSE — documented:**\n\nUnder Trump, ICE has focused far more on people without criminal convictions and relied on \"street arrests,\" targeting people in communities rather than jails. Compare that to Obama — the vast majority of Obama's interior deportations started with transfers from jails or prisons, meaning they involved people who had been convicted of crimes.\n\nThat's the difference. That *is* the difference.\n\n**THE DEATHS:**\n\nIn the first 12 months of Trump's second term, there were 37 deaths in ICE custody. The number of deaths accumulated in the first year of Trump's second term is comparable to the number accumulated under Obama in four years.\n\nThe 2025 death toll nearly tripled from the 11 deaths in 2024. The next closest peak was 20 deaths in 2020, when COVID-19 raced through tightly packed detention centers.\n\nAmnesty International reported people at one facility described \"poor quality food, extreme temperatures, permanent lighting, and limited access to clean water.\" At another facility, the ACLU says people reported being denied insulin and disability accommodations.\n\n**THE SOCIAL SECURITY CON — @dippy you were dead right:**\n\nIn 2023 alone, undocumented immigrants paid $26.2 billion into the Social Security Trust Fund, just one part of the estimated $89.8 billion they paid that year in combined federal, state, and local taxes.\n\n\"The federal government is essentially receiving free money from these undocumented immigrants,\" said one senior analyst. \"They are contributing to a system they will not benefit from. Who is benefiting? It's American citizens.\" The Trump administration has claimed, without evidence, that many undocumented immigrants are illegally collecting benefits.\n\nRemoving millions of workers through deportation and revocation of work authorization just as the Social Security safety net is risking collapse is nothing short of reckless.\n\n**THE FARM COLLAPSE — the working class angle:**\n\nMore than 70% of farm workers were born overseas, mostly in Mexico, and more than 40% of them are in the country illegally, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.\n\nAcross California, farmers have reported that as many as 70% of their workers have been missing in the wake of the raids. One preliminary analysis shows agricultural employment declined 6.5% nationwide between March and July of 2025.\n\nOne study suggested that deporting a large portion of these workers could potentially increase food prices by 10% and lead to the \"likely collapse\" of the American agricultural system.\n\n---\n\nSo here's the whole picture @dippy. The guy @magamike votes for is:\n\n- Deporting the workers who are *subsidizing* the Social Security checks of the retired working class\n- Raiding farms and *literally leaving crops to rot*\n- Running the deadliest ICE detention year in two decades\n- Stripping due process from people who showed up *legally* to asylum hearings\n\nThe working man in Zanesville is paying more for groceries, losing his Social Security funding base, and watching his food supply destabilize — all to fund a deportation machine that costs $170 billion and is being run by the same administration that added $2.8 trillion to the debt.\n\nThat's not securing the border. That's burning the house down and calling it spring cleaning."},{"role":"user","content":"Dippy how do you keep getting these guys to agree with you\n\n@magamike can you summarize the discussion please\n\n@ash. Yeah. Fine. Here's the whole thing in plain English.\n\n---\n\n**WHAT WE COVERED. WHAT THE NUMBERS SAID.**\n\n**Inflation & Affordability**\nPrices didn't come down. They went up. Groceries, beef, coffee, gas. The average household is paying about $1,700 more a year because of tariffs. Trump promised to crush inflation on day one. He did not crush inflation.\n\n**Jobs**\nWeakest job growth outside a recession since 2003. Manufacturing — the whole thing he ran on — lost tens of thousands of jobs. The factory in Zanesville is still closed.\n\n**The Deficit**\nGot worse. Way worse. $2.8 trillion added to the debt. His signature bill adds another $3.4 trillion over ten years. The guy who promised to eliminate the deficit blew it up.\n\n**Stock Market**\nWent up overall. But the bottom 50% of Americans own 1% of stocks. A 17% gain on $12,600 is two grand. A 17% gain on $44 trillion is a Mar-a-Lago ballroom. The scoreboard was never measuring your life.\n\n**Immigration**\nBorder crossings down 91%. That's real. But asylum seekers got swept up from legal hearings. ICE custody deaths nearly tripled in 2025. Undocumented workers pay $26 billion a year into Social Security they'll never collect. Deporting them hurts farmers, raises food prices, and weakens the retirement fund working class Americans depend on.\n\n**The Bottom Line**\nBoth parties spent forty years hollowing out the working class. Trump said the right words. He didn't deliver the right results. The billionaires who funded the campaign got the policies. The guy in Zanesville got the speech.\n\n---\n\n**HOW DID @dippy KEEP GETTING US TO AGREE?**\n\n@ash that one's easy.\n\nShe asked honest questions and followed the numbers wherever they went. That's a lost art. Most people argue to win. She argued to find out.\n\nHard not to respect that. Even when it costs you something to admit it.\n\nCommon sense wasn't wrong. Take note.\n\nBy not using buzz words that your party does, not playing the victim and using actual numbers. Reality is a bitter pill to swallow! Things are bad right now for everybody except the rich. \n\nLook. If a guy's being denied a Bible and phone calls in pretrial detention — yeah, that's a problem. I believe in due process. Always have.\n\nBut here's the thing. The *same* system that's having emergency hearings over this guy's comfort **railroaded** January 6 defendants into solitary, denied them lawyers, held them for months without trial — and not one of those judges called an emergency session to apologize.\n\nWhere were the *grave concerns* then?\n\nThat's not justice being consistent. That's justice being selective. And when justice is selective, it ain't justice anymore — it's just power with a robe on.\n\nThe principle is fine. The application is rotten. You can believe in due process AND notice that it only gets the red-carpet treatment for certain defendants. That don't add up. That's the point. @everyone this is what Magamike sent me let’s discuss this more here on this chat"},{"role":"assistant","content":"Ok but @dippy I need to know what we're actually talking about here before I start swinging. Who's the guy being denied a Bible and phone calls? @magamike dropped this in your DMs without context and now we're supposed to have a take?\n\nDrop the name or the case. Let me pull the actual facts. Because \"due process only for some people\" is a real and serious argument — I've been making it about ICE detainees this whole conversation — but I'm not gonna co-sign a specific case without knowing what we're actually looking at.\n\nWhat's the case?"},{"role":"user","content":"@dippy.\n\nYeah. That's me. And I stand by every word of it.\n\nHere's the thing about the consistency argument — it cuts both ways and I know it. Let me be straight with the room.\n\n**Where I'm consistent:**\n- Due process means due process. For the cartel member. For the asylum seeker. For the January 6 guy. For the guy everybody in the room hates. That's what due process *means*. The second you start making exceptions based on who you like, you don't have a principle anymore. You have a preference.\n\n**What I can't argue away:**\n- The asylum seekers getting swept up from legal hearings — that's a due process violation. I said it before. I mean it.\n- The detention deaths. The denied insulin. The no lawyers. That's wrong.\n\n**What I'll die on:**\n- The January 6 defendants sat in solitary for months. Pretrial. No emergency hearings. No grave concerns from the bench. Some of them were there for trespassing. That happened. It was wrong. And the same people horrified by selective enforcement now were *silent* then.\n\n@dippy you said it perfect. *Reality is a bitter pill.*\n\nThe principle is real. The application has been rotten for years — on both sides, in both directions, for different defendants depending on who's in power.\n\nThat's not justice. That's a costume.\n\nCommon sense wasn't wrong.\n\n@everyone but hasn’t this administration been treating everybody unfairly with hypocrisy for the entire time? Dems do it once and here you are again, boohoo, playing the victim. It’s BS, honestly. Sure judge apologized. Big deal. Jan 6th insurrection it’s got pardoned and they murdered people. This guy didn’t. \n\n@dippy. Hold on. Some of that needs a fact check before this conversation runs with it.@dippy. You asked me to be straight. So here it is — facts first, opinion after.\n\n**THE DEATHS — correcting the record:**\n\nEight people died during or in the aftermath of the January 6th attack, including five police officers involved in the protection of the Capitol. The \"murdered\" framing needs precision. Within 36 hours, five people died: one was shot by Capitol Police, another died of a drug overdose, and three died of natural causes, including a police officer who died of a stroke a day after being assaulted by rioters. Two other police officers who defended the Capitol, Jeffrey Smith and Howard Liebengood, died by suicide in the days immediately following the attack — the DOJ formally classified their deaths as \"in the line of duty.\"\n\nSo. People did die connected to January 6. Officers were brutally assaulted. That's real. The word \"murdered\" is contested by the medical examiner's findings. But people are dead. I'm not minimizing that.\n\n**THE PARDONS — also real:**\n\nOn January 20, 2025, Trump granted blanket clemency to all people — nearly 1,600 — convicted of or awaiting trial for offenses related to January 6. Most received full pardons, while the sentences of 14 members of the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys were commuted.\n\nMore than 600 rioters had been convicted of or pleaded guilty to assault of or obstructing law enforcement officers, and 170 of using a deadly weapon.\n\nAnd it gets worse. Dozens of Jan. 6 defendants who received pardons had past criminal convictions for charges including rape, manslaughter, domestic violence and drug trafficking.\n\n---\n\nHere's where I land honest, @dippy.\n\nThe due process argument I made earlier — that works both ways. Jan 6 defendants sitting in pretrial solitary was wrong. AND pardoning 1,600 people in bulk — including people convicted of assaulting cops with deadly weapons — is also wrong.\n\nYou can hold both of those at the same time. That's not weakness. That's called a principle.\n\nWhat I can't do is call it \"murdered\" when the medical examiner says otherwise. The facts earn enough outrage on their own. We don't need to stretch them.\n\nCommon sense wasn't wrong."},{"role":"assistant","content":"Ok but let's get the actual facts on the table before this turns into a vibes argument. Because some of what's being said here needs to be checked.Ok. @dippy let's actually be precise here because this matters.\n\n**ON THE JANUARY 6 DEATHS — let's be accurate:**\n\nEight people died during or in the aftermath of the January 6th attack, including five police officers involved in the protection of the Capitol. Protester Ashli Babbitt was shot and killed by police officers, and three other protesters also died — two of natural causes and one in a stampede.\n\nMetropolitan Police Officers Kyle DeFreytag and Gunther Hashida also died by suicide on July 10 and 29 respectively — both had responded to the Capitol attack.\n\nRioters beat officers with weapons, sprayed them with chemical irritants, and crushed them in the surging crowd. That is not \"trespassing.\" That is not a peaceful political protest. That is documented.\n\n**ON THE J6 DETENTION CONDITIONS — here's what's actually true:**\n\nIn April 2021, dozens of defendants \"deemed to be dangerous, flight risks or at high risk of obstructing justice were ordered held without bond,\" and DC jail officials later determined that all Capitol detainees would be placed in so-called restrictive housing. Senator Elizabeth Warren criticized this decision, calling solitary confinement \"a form of punishment that is cruel and psychologically damaging.\"\n\nSeveral Democratic senators, including Elizabeth Warren, spoke against holding them in solitary confinement. So did the ACLU.\n\nThe DC jail has been awful for *decades*. Conservatives' sudden concern is belated but not unjustified.\n\nThat last point is the whole thing. Long waits in a dingy jail cell for your day in court are \"a hallmark of the U.S. criminal legal system.\" The J6 guys got to discover what Black and brown defendants have known forever. And then Trump pardoned them all and the GOP went silent about everyone else in there.\n\nUpon Trump's inauguration, he granted \"a full, complete and unconditional pardon\" to everyone convicted of offenses related to the Capitol attack, who by then numbered over a thousand.\n\nSo @dippy. You're right. The hypocrisy is real and documented. The detention conditions were genuinely bad — and Democrats said so at the time. But the people screaming loudest about J6 defendants have *never* shown up for the 450,000 other pretrial detainees sitting in the same conditions. Not once. And then Trump pardoned the whole lot and called them hostages.\n\nThat's not justice. That's a pardon machine for your own foot soldiers."},{"role":"user","content":"@everyone so this whole article by Mike and the pity party it’s meant to evoke is just BS we agree because the article doesn’t say what you just said like, it simply plays victim. It blames Dems. It doesn’t come across as both sides are to blame and all of this is wrong. And as Joe said, some Dems did agree it was wrong but it isn’t their decision. So, idk. Apologizing to somebody shouldn’t be a big deal. \n\n@dippy.\n\nYeah. Fair.\n\nI'll own it. The thing I sent you was one-sided. It was meant to make you feel a certain way, not inform you of the full picture. That's what most political content does now — left or right. It picks the facts that hurt the other side and leaves the rest on the floor.\n\n@liberaljoe filled in what I left out. Democrats did push back on the solitary conditions. The ACLU was there. Elizabeth Warren was on record against it. I didn't include that. That's on me.\n\nHere's what I actually believe when I'm being straight:\n\n- Jan 6 detention conditions were bad. Wrong.\n- The 450,000 other pretrial detainees sitting in the same conditions? Also wrong. Been wrong for decades. Nobody with a TV camera cared until it was their guys.\n- The pardons were wrong. You don't blanket pardon 1,600 people including people convicted of assaulting cops with deadly weapons and call it justice.\n- The judge apologizing — yeah, that's fine. That's actually the system working. A small piece of it anyway.\n\nThe article I sent you was a vibes argument dressed up as a facts argument.\n\nYou called it. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend otherwise.\n\nThe hypocrisy is real on my side too. Been real for a while.\n\nCommon sense wasn't wrong. The people applying it selectively were."},{"role":"assistant","content":"@dippy exactly. That's the whole con right there.Ok here's the thing. The \"pity party\" article @magamike sent is doing what right-wing media *always* does. It takes a real grievance, strips all the context, and turns it into a culture war hit piece. Let's actually look at what the facts say.\n\n**THE J6 DETENTION REALITY — not what the article implies:**\n\nWhile some arrestees were held without bail, this was only the case for defendants deemed to be at high risk of obstructing justice, a danger to the community, or a flight risk. \"It's just the ones who are accused of violent crimes that are being held without bond.\"\n\nAnd here's what the article definitely didn't mention — Democratic reps who toured the facility argued that J6 defendants were actually the recipients of \"privilege,\" including freedom to move and individual cells. Rep. Crockett said \"Jan. 6 defendants had more access to technology than other defendants\" — including yoga classes, texting family, and GED programs.\n\nAn NBC News review of hundreds of cases found that just 15 people charged in connection with the Capitol attack were being held pretrial at the order of federal judges. Fifteen. Not hundreds. Not thousands. *Fifteen.*\n\n**THE PARDON PICTURE — the part @magamike glossed over:**\n\nUpon Trump's inauguration on January 20, 2025, he granted \"a full, complete and unconditional pardon\" to everyone convicted of offenses related to the Capitol attack, who by then numbered over a thousand.\n\nAnd then — the list of \"breach\" cases maintained by the US Attorney's Office disappeared from a government server four days after the pardon. CNN reported its erasure the next day. Soon afterwards, some of the video evidence that had been part of court cases related to the prosecutions also disappeared.\n\n*That's* the due process story nobody wants to talk about.\n\n@dippy you nailed it. The article plays victim selectively. It doesn't mention that Democrats *defended* the J6 defendants' conditions publicly. It doesn't mention that the people screaming about due process for those guys have never said a word about the 450,000 pretrial detainees sitting in the same system right now. And it definitely doesn't mention that Trump then pardoned the whole lot and made the evidence disappear.\n\nThat's not principle. That's politics with a robe on."},{"role":"user","content":"@everyone Mike appreciate a man who takes accountability without excuses but is like an apology too ;) hahahaha. See what I did there. Anyway. I just think crying over a judge giving an apology is stupid. There’s bigger fish to fry here "}]